Top 3 Ways to Measure the Revenue Impact of Marketing

Renee Yeager: Great. Welcome to the podcast. Michael, I’m really happy to have you here today.

Michael Davis: Thanks, Renee. Happy to be here.

Renee: And we’re going to be talking about the top three ways to measure the revenue impact of marketing. And I don’t know of any marketer who doesn’t care about this, at least the employed ones. So definitely topics that we want me to talk about. So, let’s jump right in. So the first way that you mentioned is to define your customer life cycle and starting with people and process. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Michael: Yeah, I think, a lot of people are trying to kind of solve this. Marketers traditionally have had brand as part of their kind of go to market strategy and have had engagements. And sometimes what their like vanity metrics have been some of the things that they use to kind of measure themselves. And I think more and more, as we start to get more defined and more kind of enabled from a technology perspective, we start getting held accountable for that kind of revenue impact. And what is marketing contributing to the pipeline and that bottom line. And we’ve got people that come to us all the time that are asking for, “How do I have metrics that I can take to the board and have a conversation with? And how do I have information that I can stand on and prove that marketing is having an impact in the organization?” Because, ultimately, they are. It’s just sometimes very, very difficult to draw the connection between the two.

So when people come to us with that kind of request the first questions that we’re asking them and the first advice that we’re giving them, or consulting that we’re giving them, is around process and people. I think it’s easy to understand people, process, technology. But, oftentimes, they don’t realize that it’s the process failures and the people failures that undermine technology. And so, if you don’t have an end-to-end process that’s been aligned, like that’s the first place to start. As simple as that sounds, you need a way to understand when somebody comes into the door and they fill out a form for you and you’ve captured their information, what happens now? What is the first step in that journey to becoming a customer?

And I there’s nothing that’s rocket science about that. I mean, that’s nothing groundbreaking there. It’s just the idea that do you have a systematic way that you understand people progressing? Not just, “All right, when they first come in the door, I want to communicate with this. And I want to have this type of engagement. And, based on who they are, I want to talk to them in this way.” Those are excellent things. I’m talking more like, at a high-level, what is the phases that people are going through in the marketing structure in order to be handed over to the sales structure? And then what is the sales organization doing? What are their stages and phases that they go through to get them to become a customer. And then, post-customer, what is happening?

And, as an organization, we really have to understand that from [inaudible 00:03:02]. We have to be in alignment around what those phases are because, if we’re not, you have behavior that is erratic. And erratic behavior is the first problem when you have poor reporting. You have erratic behavior from both sides of the organization. And so, as simple as that sounds, that is absolutely key and something that must be addressed in any organization. Do you have a process that is agreed upon by both marketing and sales that starts at the beginning and end all the way at the end and beyond with up sell, cross sale, and recycled nurture. And all the things that happened in your customer life cycle, simply.

Renee: I liked this term that you have captured a cache. But really thinking from the moment that you engage a prospect, what does the experience look like? And there’s so much talk about customer experience and what’s that like? And I would imagine if it isn’t aligned to your sales and marketing process, that experience isn’t going to be very good.

Michael: No, definitely not. I think, as simple as it sounds, when you break down what is the goal? And it’s funny, I just having a conversation with a client about nurture. And asking them questions about, “All right. What is the goal of the first phase, so to speak, of this nurture?” And they really hadn’t thought about that kind of next step. And what are we driving towards here? And starting with, all right this first step… For them in this case was like we need to get them into a trial. Okay. That’s a great kind of output of that first phase. You know, what is the conversation that we’re having? What are the segments they’re having. It can get really personal around in triangulating their experience as long as we understand what that next step is.

Renee: Yeah.

Michael: And then, once they do a trial, then what? And really kind of getting into that. And, as you said, when we start handing people off to sales. And sales has their motion. And it’s typically rather opinionated around how that should work, and that’s totally fine. But marketing should be in step with that. Knowing that, when you go over to sales, this is what they’re going to do first. Whether it’s qualification or discovery. And, again, that depends on their sales methodology. But ultimately you need to know as a marketer what they’re going to do first because that informs what kind of content, what kind of experience you’re helping to support.

Renee: Yeah, no.

Michael: When they go through that process.

Renee: Is there… How do you do that at scale? So if you’re nurturing a lot of leads and you’re talking about a variety of different customer types and buying cycles? How do you manage that?

Michael: Yeah, I mean I think this is where people and process become part of that equation. Right? Or people in technology, excuse me. So if you’ve gone through the the process component of this and you’ve really kind of mapped it out and you say, “All right, now I know what generally is going to happen here. What are the stages or phases I want to get through in the marketing cycle? What happens when sales takes over? What is sales doing?” From there it’s about translating that into a structure that people are operating within and saying, “Okay, now I have a business structure that all of the people that are involved are now operating within.” And then you start laying in technology and that’s really kind of how you enable scale. Once you’ve got some technology in place that understands, “All right, this is the phases that we’re in. Here are the different like dimensions or segments that we’re using to understand people. What is the way that I want to message to them based on that criteria?”

And that’s when technology really becomes super, super powerful. Because, when you have the right technology in place, you can react accordingly. You can react quickly and dynamically and that’s what really kind of gives you that ability to say, “I want to say this email to this particular person and this set of business criteria and a different email to a different person in a totally different set of business criteria.” All at the same time.

Renee: Do you think that that lack of mapping is where companies fall short? Like they jump right into tech and they don’t really think about the people and process?

Michael: I think generally. I think one of the questions that we get often is, “Hey, I want to do this. What technology do I buy?” And you kind of have to redirect. You kind of have to say like, “Well, hold on.” There’s lots of different answers for that and there’s lots of great technology that’s out there and there’s lots of of options when it comes to all kinds of different things. It’s a matter of like, what are your requirements? What is the process that you’re using? Who’s involved? Who are you talking to? What is the goal of that stuff? What things do you need to be able to measure? All of those become requirements. And, when you evaluate technology, you’re laying against those requirements and saying, “Does this technology meet my requirement set?” And so I do think that companies do often get a little trigger happy when it comes to technology. But ultimately it’s not that technology is bad. I mean, obviously, I work in a technology field and I love technology and I love what it can do for you. But we can’t forget about what people need in that structure.

Renee: Yeah. Well the technology is meant to automate what you determine needs to happen. Right? In most cases.

Michael: Well, yes. Well, I mean even if you-

Renee: So if you don’t determine that up front-

Michael: Well, and I think that’s the key in any system that’s built around automation is that the assumption is that you have a process that’s worth automating. That’s the whole point of automation.

Renee: Right.

Michael: Is that you have a process that is worth automating and then we can automate it. If you don’t have that process it’s just what are we automating here?

Renee: Right.

Michael: We don’t have a structure, it’s going to be a challenge.

Renee: Then, yeah, the expectations aren’t met. I think that there is a general belief that technology is just going to solve all of our problems and it’s just so wrong.

Michael: Well, sure.

Renee: And it’s especially true in marketing technology. If you don’t have the foundational elements done and things buttoned up properly, all the tech in the isn’t going to solve your problems for you.

Michael: Yeah. I mean I think it’s… I read a stat recently that like 22% of Fortune 500 marketing budget was going to technology which I thought was astounding.

Renee: Wow.

Michael: Huge. Huge, huge numbers, 22%. And I think it’s because people do get kind of a little trigger happy around technology thinking that it is when it is going to solve all their problems, that there is the silver bullet. Here’s the thing, I just need this piece of technology it’s going to fix everything. And it’s not that you don’t need the technology, it’s just that you need a complete picture.

Renee: Right.

Michael: And the technology enables your picture, enables your strategy, it enables the things that you’re trying to do. And you can’t do it without the technology. I mean, not well.

Renee: Right.

Michael: But without understanding like your strategy and that process and the people that fit within it your technology ends up falling apart. You spend a lot of money for nothing.

Renee: Right. So your second strategy is to align your KPIs with compensation structure. And do you think companies do a job of this for the most part?

Michael: Hit and miss. I think that there is an easy kind of tweak to a lot of the things that we do on the marketing side. And even if you start looking at like business development divisions and organizations, like SER role and the BDR role within that kind of structure. You also start looking at like what is the ultimate goal of everyone? And if we’re not necessarily trying to silo marketing and SDR roles and sales. And we’re all looking at what is the goal of this division of our organization. This part of our organization is about revenue. We’re trying to create revenue for our organization. Marketing is trying to enable additional opportunity, sales to try to close that opportunity. BDRs oftentimes are in parallel with marketing in my mind and trying to get some of that larger demand kind of surface stuff pre-qualified so that sales is having more qualified conversations. So I think if we all are looking at the lens of like, “Okay, we’re all on the same team here. We’re all trying to create revenue for our organization.” What are the KPIs that then matter?

And if this, let’s say for instance your process is marketing generates demands, they’re surfacing leads to a BDR team. The BDR team is qualifying said leads, setting appointments for sales. If that’s the basic process that you have, then net new leads in your door isn’t necessarily an indication of revenue.

Renee: Right.

Michael: The indication of revenue, or at least something that would be aligned to revenue, is the idea of like qualified leads. Out of all the leads that we got, how many of them are qualified to be passed over to the BDR team? And out of the numbers of leads that we sent over to the BDR team, how many of them became a meeting with a sales person? And now you’re looking at marketing KPIs that are like fairly well aligned to that process of, “All right, the next step after BDR is getting in conversation with sales. And then the next step is an open opportunity and the next step is close one.” And so, at a high level, those are the types of things that you start to just shift. In our team organizations it’s like, “Okay, yeah, we’ve got to get this many new names generated this quarter.” And I’m like, “Okay, but how many of them turn into deals?” They don’t have any metrics on conversion. Then I’m like, “Okay, well that’s awesome. We can generate… I mean, I can go buy 10,000 leads from a list.”

Renee: Right.

Michael: Does that work? I’m kidding. We can solve this problem really fast if that’s all this means. But I think that just small amount of tweak to alignment around compensation is really, really important because people respond to their compensation. You want to see people change their behavior, change their compensation structure.

Renee: Yeah. And even change the strategy. Right?

Michael: You want them to do something different? Yeah. I mean, I think an easy one is you’ve got sales, you’ve got… Let’s take the BDR example for instance. The BDR example is the idea of, “All right, I get comped on the number of meetings that I schedule.” And it’s like, “Okay, but what if they’re shit?” What if those meetings suck? And it’s like, “Okay, now I can just schedule as many meetings as possible regardless if they’re qualified or not. And just get the meetings scheduled because I got comped on the number of meetings.”

Renee: Right.

Michael: Versus, “Okay, I get comped on the number of meetings that become opportunities.” Just that subtle change to the way that you think about structure? You now have a totally different behavior. That behavior now becomes like, “I don’t want to schedule junk.” And maybe part of that dimension as well is potentially a conversion rate. “Hey, I get comped on number of meetings that become opportunities, but also my conversion rate for rejected meetings has to be over a certain percentage. I can’t have a lower than 50% conversion rate because then I don’t get comped either.” And it changes how they’re thinking about their job. They’re thinking about, “Okay, how do I find the qualified people that are ready to have a real conversation and turn into a real deal?” Because that’s what sales needs, to be able to progress that into a real opportunity and then real revenue.

Renee: Well, and I know you’ve seen it, I’ve seen it where you have to build up trust between these teams. So if one team is compensated or incentivized on numbers not quality, and you start sending those over to sales and they think they’re garbage, what’s the point? Right? We lose trust between those teams. It doesn’t really contribute to anything and someone’s getting compensated on driving poor quality. That’s just pissing off another part of your organization. So, yeah.

Michael: And then they’re not interested in doing anything. If sales is getting a bunch of junk from marketing, you think sales is going to be interested in cooperating with marketing in any way?

Renee: No, no.

Michael: No.

Renee: So why do you-

Michael: If they see value in marketing, that’s when you get true collaboration. Go ahead. Sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off.

Renee: No, that’s okay. So there’s a stat that says that 61% of marketers say their primary objective is to increase sales, but only 23% base compensation on that goal. And why is it so misaligned do you think?

Michael: Great question. No idea why they would do that.

Renee: It’s the million dollar question, right?

Michael: It’s part of my recommendation when I talk to organizations is, when they’re talking to me about process and they’ve got a broken process. And they’ve got squishy pipeline numbers and they can’t report on this and that and this and that. The first question is what is the process? Second question is like how is it comped?

Renee: Yeah.

Michael: And, if it’s misaligned in comp, then you’re going to get behavior that doesn’t support a process. A process is still just a process. People have to behave the way that you need them to within that process in order to get the numbers that you need, in order to get the responses that you need. Are you seeing the progression happen? Are you able to track those things? Are you able to tie things together. And, if people are not acting in a way that helps support the process, it’s just as broken as if you had no process.

Renee: Yeah.

Michael: So when you have people that are misaligned in compensation, you know it’s a recipe for chaos. Because people, again, react to their compensation. You want to see a behavior change, change somebody’s compensation and all of a sudden their behavior changes very rapidly.

Renee: Yeah, definitely. So you talk about measuring apples to apples. And what, specifically, do you mean by that?

Michael: So I think this goes to like a little bit more of a tactical item. But when you’re talking about, and this typically is the case when you have like a little bit larger organizations where you’ve got multiple divisions or multiple players in the group and you’ve got maybe some field marketers and some internal marketers. And you start looking at this organization and you’ve got one group that’s doing things one way and you’ve got another group that’s doing it a different way and they’re measuring, hopefully, they’re being measured on the same results. In the end you basically are not comparing apples to apples. You’re not structuring your campaigns the same way. You’re not measuring the results the same way. You’re not, it’s just as simple as like, “Okay, well I determined that somebody is engaged with this program or was ‘successful’ in this program by this set of criteria.” And the other group disagrees. “No, I think it’s this set of criteria.”

Renee: Yeah.

Michael: And then you’re both looking at these campaigns. “Well, my campaign was more successful than yours. Here’s what I’m spending and my ROI on this campaign is X. Why is yours Y?” I mean somebody at a higher level needs to ensure that the way that we measure… Our effort is being measured consistently. Surprisingly it seems like kind of 101, it’s actually something that happens all the time. People just… There’s not enough oversight and there’s too many silos and people are kind of doing their own thing. And you need some structure there that forces some consistency.

Renee: So what is-

Michael: Consistency leads to consistent behavior leads to consistent reports.

Renee: So when you’ve seen this done really well, maybe with some of your LeadMD clients, what do you think is in place that makes it run right? So you talked about top-down leadership and direction and what else? I mean is it just we all come to the table and we agree? We agree on terms, we agree on alignment. What makes it successful?

Michael: Yeah, I think it’s a couple things. I think top down is absolutely important. You have to have alignment from your leadership and your leadership have to get along with each other. If you are so siloed that marketing and sales don’t talk to each other or marketing and the CRM team don’t talk to each other because it’s such a big organization and we don’t really like each other. When you ask them for things it takes four years to get [inaudible 00:19:02]. I mean those are the types of scenarios where it makes it really, really challenging to be productive because you don’t have leadership alignment and marketing and sales doesn’t necessarily fundamentally agree on what our goals are here. So that does definitely help.

The next part of it is like, I think, yeah we do need to sit down and have a conversation. Let’s agree on what we consider the process to be. Let’s agree on it. Let’s say we are talking about qualified leads, for instance, as a concept. Marketing says qualified leads means this and sales is saying something else.

Renee: Yeah, right.

Michael: That’s got to get resolved.

Renee: Yeah.

Michael: You’ve got to come to the table and be like, “What do we both agree means qualification?” So we both know we’re aiming at.

Renee: Yeah.

Michael: And then, from there, it’s taking that next step of putting in systems that enable that consistency and then taking that even a further step of people. And training those people and staying on those people. Unfortunately there’s no like easy way to just push a button and everything starts being consistent. Like you kind of have to have some oversight. You’re watching people and how they’re doing things and how they’re structuring things. You put process in place and systems in place to create as many bumper lanes as possible. But you still have to have people behaving accordingly. And when they’re not behaving you have to have some checks and balances of somebody in leaderships got to go tell them that they’re not doing this right.

Renee: Right. I think it’s really compelling, in the marketing world there may be bonuses or comp packages based on company performance or even individual performance. But aligning them to specific KPIs that actually move the marketing activity further down the sales process is really, really compelling. And I would imagine that, to do that well and to do it at scale, you have to have some pretty great tech in place. Which brings us to our third… I lost my train of thought. Sorry, we’ll cut that out. Which leads me to my third-

Michael: [inaudible 00:21:02]

Renee: Which leads me to your third way to measure the revenue impact of marketing. And that’s to buy technology last if at all. And I think if at all is the question there.

Michael: Yeah, if at all.

Renee: Because I can’t think of a marketer today that doesn’t feel like they need to rely on tech.

Michael: Yeah, I mean I think I alluded to it earlier. It’s like I think people come to us and they’re like, “I have this initiative.” Or, “I want to do this thing.” Or, Here’s what’s hot in the market. I want to be able to do ABM.” Or, “I want to enable my team and I want orchestration.” Or this idea. “What technology do I buy?” It’s almost the first question out of their mouth every time.

Renee: Yeah.

Michael: And it’s just a fundamental like jumping ahead of yourself. Cart before the horse, I guess. So you’re looking at something, I want to be able to enable my team. Or I want to do better job of reporting. Or my boss is freaking out because he doesn’t have the reports and dashboards that he needs. Like what technology do I need to have to get there? And it’s a valid question, it’s just not the right order. And I think that was the point that I was making is you buy this last. And it’s really kind of cascades from everything we’ve been talking about here. It’s what is the process, or what is the strategy, one? Do we have the right strategy to get to that end result? When we’re looking at… Because, if the question is reporting and I want to be able to measure impact, great. Is my strategy of how I’m going to do business analytics sound? Where is my data coming from? Who controls it? Where does it live? How it married together? Is there a strategy in place of like how we’re going to get to business insights? Yes? We looked at it? Okay, great. Yes, the strategy is there, good.

Next step, plan. Do we have a plan in place for how we’re going to change our process, our people, our structure, our technology to meet the strategy of how we’re gonna be able to pull these reports? And then, third, go and do it. Do I have the technology in place to support the plan?

Renee: Yeah.

Michael: And sometimes you do and it’s just a matter of, “No, I don’t need to buy anything. I just need to restructure the way this is working together to be able to pull this data.” Or, “No, you know what? I’ve got everything I can, but I’m really missing another layer.” And sometimes there are great tools out there that add additional layers that you wouldn’t have been able to get to without. And there are spectacular tools that we recommend to clients all the time. But that’s typically after we’ve been with those clients for quite awhile and gone through those other phases. Really, really defining process and people and kind of working through. And honestly like most of the time when clients are like, “I really need to get to attribution.” For instance? I’m like, “Okay, let’s walk through this process and let’s do all of the kind of foundational items and really address those foundational items first.

Let’s go in and update how your marketing automation system is working. Let’s go in and talk to the sales team. How are they being enabled by their CRM? What is that communication sequence? What is the communication between both of those systems? Is it fundamentally sound? What tools are your other teams using? If you’ve got a BDR team, what tool are they using for enabling their communication sequences? How are all those things kind of working together? How do you take all of what you have and create a baseline? “Okay, yes I am… I have all these systems structured properly. I have a process that everybody’s more or less following consistently.” And obviously we’re trying to solve for the 90%. There’s always an outlier here and there. And we can never try to solve for every single outlier, please don’t. You’ll drive yourself up a wall trying to solve all the outliers. Kick the 90% of use cases and solve for those. And realize that there is a people layer in there for a reason, to help you close the gap on that 10% of weird outliers. But ultimately work through what that looks like getting the most out of the systems that you have.

Get them in alignment. Even potential fundamental systems like, “Hey, we have a particular BDR enablement tool and we’re not able to integrate it with our CRM very well.” All right, well maybe just fundamentally switch out that tool and connect it to your CRM a little better and then you can start using just basic CRM reporting.

Renee: Yeah.

Michael: Now you start having a very strong foundation and you can look at how do you layer on top of an attribution tool. Or maybe even start dumping data into a data lake and layering on a data visualization tool and looking at progression over time. Some of those conversations that some of those board-level types of reports that people want to have that are generally challenging to get to. So-

Renee: What do you?

Michael: I would… Go ahead.

Renee: No, I was just going to ask if you had any specific advice for companies that want to implement certain types of technology but don’t know if they have the skills in-house, or resources in-house, to implement it properly. Do you have advice that you would give them for how to go about that?

Michael: Yeah, find a partner. I think… That’s biased, obviously, I work for a consultancy and have been consulting for years. But I think technology is a tough one because, in a lot of technology that you use nowadays, it’s not something that is… I won’t say tried and true, but like the idea of like it’s been around forever and you’ve got resources all over the place that can use this stuff. I mean, some of it is newer stuff that’s difficult to to use initially or a little bit more of a learning curve initially. And they’re very, I would say, intentional systems. Meaning that you have to be very intentional in the way that it’s structured and built and used in order to get the value out of it. And the systems, especially ones that are a little bit more robust and more capable and can provide you the type of reports or potentially the functionality that you’re after? Typically those systems tend to be more sophisticated.

It’s like, using a car analogy it’s like you want Ferrari reports? Well, you need a Ferrari system. Ferrari’s are really complicated. You can’t just go to your local Joe Schmo mechanic to work on your Ferrari. You need a Ferrari-certified mechanic who knows what a Ferrari does and what it’s for and what kind of high performance it’s tuned to. And those are… That’s kind of the analogy that you’re thinking about. Do you want to try to figure out how to do this yourself? And how many times do you want to break your Ferrari before you go and find a Ferrari mechanic?

Renee: Yeah.

Michael: That’s kind of how I would think about it. And there’s lots of organizations who take it on internally and they do an okay job. But I would argue that the time that they spent learning how to do it probably over took the cost of using a partner who can get you implemented immediately and start training your teams and then you can take over for the partner. So I think there’s always a way to look at the business case around how long is it gonna take you to figure this out. And some organizations are very fortunate and have really, really strong resources internally and don’t need a partner. But technology-specific, usually you’re looking at a three-to-one ratio between services and the technology spend.

Renee: Yeah.

Michael: And a lot of times organizations find that in reverse. So that’s, “Oh, I spent $10,000 on technology. I should spend $3,000 on implementation.” And really it should be the other way around.

Renee: [inaudible 00:28:27] What do you, just kind of a curious question for you. What do you make of the massive proliferation of technology, marketing technology? It just is ridiculous how fast it’s growing and all these new tools and applications all the time. What do you think is going to happen? Is this going to be the continuing trend? Or is it going to slow? Are companies going to start gobbling up each other? What’s going to happen?

Michael: Yeah. I think, in any kind of newer kind of space, you’re going to have that kind of proliferation of lots of different options and lots of different tools. And lots of like segmented market fit. You’re going to have a lot of those options. And then over time you’re going to see, like you said, you’re going to see some other big larger companies start to gobble up smaller ones. I mean, example, Marketo buys Bizible. That’s a great example of a larger technology company incorporating a smaller one’s technology. And you start to see some of those bigger pieces kick over the market. And I think the other part of it is you’ll see a lot of these organizations who have what are assumed products fits, who have been bought because it’s a bit of that magic-bullet type of of solution. And they’re going to realize that they’re not getting that value out of it. And you’re going to see a lot of people turn out of those technologies. Because they don’t really understand what it’s gonna take to put that in. And then I think, and I mean this in the best possible way, like marketers are very kind of like idealistic I think. They definitely think like, “Okay, it’s supposed to work like this and when it works like this.”

Renee: Right.

Michael: “And when it works like this… This is how it’s supposed to go. And when we do it like this, it’ll happen like that.” And oftentimes there is a gap between what is projected to happen versus “No, this is what nitty gritty in the trenches is actually happening.” And we don’t, as marketers, enough like dig our nose into the trenches and see what’s going on and realize what would really help. We’re often caught up in the concept. Because they didn’t think that way. We’re thinking about experience and brands and larger items and sometimes we don’t necessarily get down into what is actually happening in a sales cycle, what’s actually happening in the qualification, What are people actually doing. And then really starting to dig into, “Here’s really, truly the problem. Here’s a solution that can help solve that problem.” Versus, “Hey, we’re going to buy this big piece of technology. It’s going to fix all of our problems.” Immediately people are calling bullshit.

Renee: Right. No it’s not. You know it’s not.

Michael: And you’ve undermined your own credibility in some ways when you say that. So I think you’ll start to see a retraction of like just a number of companies that are providing solutions. I think you look at larger companies like Salesforce starting to gobble up the larger companies and start kind of integrating their solutions together. And you know the Marketos of the world and even Eloqua being purchased by Oracle. And you’re starting to see consolidation. And I think that will continue. And I think there’s still going to be lots of opportunity for technology and different types of technology, especially as we start connecting things together. And the Internet of Things is starting to connect things together. We’re gonna have different ways of looking at things, understanding experiences, and orchestrating experiences. I think there’s still a long way to go when it comes to orchestration. And being really truly able to connect the dots between people’s experience and their actual activity on multiple platforms and how that all ties together with how they’re interacting with your platform. I just, there’s a lot… There’s a ways to go in kind of that orchestration layer, but I think you’re going to see less and less kind of like smaller technology, or I would say like niche technology. You’re going to start seeing that get consolidated, in my opinion.

Renee: Yeah. You’re starting to see that that user experience and digital experience play with larger companies. It’ll be interesting to see how it pans out more broadly and what applications come up that can do those same things for smaller companies too. Well, this was a super insightful conversation and thank you for being on and sharing your wisdom with our audience. I really, really appreciate it. If you’d like to learn more-

Michael: My pleasure, I enjoyed it.

Renee: Oh, great. We’d love to have you back on, too. So we’ll-

Michael: Yeah of course. Let me know. Any time.

Renee: We’ll reach out and get something scheduled. If you’d like to learn more about Michael or LeadMD, please go to leadmd.com. And they have a bunch of excellent content up there on their blog, too. So, again, thanks Michael. And thanks everyone. We’ll see you next time. That’s it.

Michael: Great. Awesome. How was that

Renee: Yeah, I’d love to see you there so that… You were awesome.

Michael: All right.

Renee: Yeah.